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lordnikon
rank 58
Posted:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:20 pm
quote : #1
profile : pm
Posts: 2765
Type: NTSC-U/C
I wanted to comment in a standalone thread on the topic of CTF with small player counts, based on some previous mentions by koss in the after game lobby thread.

I always liked CTF back in the day because you could be anything. You could repair, you could attack/disrupt the enemy base, you could defend either resources or the flag, or you could go for the enemy's flag (and then there is Turtling...). There were so many other things going on in matches of 16 human players that you could pick your role. Obviously, this is much harder to simulate with a smaller human player count, especially with the bot A.I. being rather predictable at times.

My approach has always been to be lazy about flag capping under such circumstances. If my team grabs 3 flags, in the first few minutes of a 10 minute game, I don't go for the enemy flag. We are ahead a bit, now I can sit back and do some base defense or base disruption. I never really look at the in-game score as being the judgement of who "won". If the game ends 500 to 100, I am not thinking about this score. I am thinking:

"Well was I under a lot of pressure at my own base due to generators getting destroyed?"
"Did I get owned a lot in 1 on 1 competition?"
"Did I successfully fend off a lot of flag caps despite only getting 1 flag cap myself?"

Snafu, and many other seasoned clan players could flag cap the games into oblivion, forcing them to end after a few minutes tops. I actually hate it when this happens in smaller matches because... why do ANYTHING ELSE if a player is going to be flag capping so aggressively. Snafu doesn't do this, and he holds back if the margin of victory is high and there is stil a ways to go on the timer. I think he tends to cap the 8th flag in the last 2 minutes or less of a 10 minute match usually and full 8 flag cap matches don't happen too often.

I think CTF can work just fine as long as everyone knows what is going on. Pulling back on flag capping has always been a good way to keep the match competative. Maybe turning our unconcious practice into a reommended ruleset would help? Sort of like, if your team gets to 3 flags, your team hold's back and are all, "Come at me bro".

I have always felt CNH to be a better mode for low player counts, but I still want to play CTF.
  _________________
The most effective, in this war?
The Bydo have it... and they control it.
Snafu Organizer
rank 27
Posted:
Mon May 01, 2017 8:30 pm
quote : #2
profile : pm
Posts: 565
I totally understand and mildly agree with your point of view Lordnikon, and i respect it. The thing is or my opinion of ctf and why i like it so much is that i like capping out and going to the next map. Having a chance to end a game before time is over makes me feel like we do more games. I know we don't do this, but i use to hate it when good players on a one sided good team will have the flag, be in the lead, and not cap the flag when they rightfully can for the past five minutes. The come and get me point of view, not like the way you talked about nikon, i don't like. If i'm on a winning team, i don't want to beat someone's offensives ass down again and again. It feels like teasing or bulling the other team and i know the feeling about being on the other our ranked team and i just wish the game would end to get a fresh start again. Now flushing out someone turteling, i do enjoy. There will be cnh and some hunters next week and a ctf of course. I do try to cap out ctf games fast sometimes and i will sit back and go for the base at times too. When we play few but fast capping out games, i get my fix and i'm ready to switch up the game mode to please other players.

I do love cnh because it has some of my favorite maps in that game style and the score in hunters can change with a drop of a hat and hunters is the best game style ever for online fps playing period.

I would like to see a score cap ending the game in cnh, like domination in cod.

When we do play full time limit games, like hunters, it just feels like we play way less games and maps and i like to keep variety and change happening. Cnh can not be bellow fifteen minute matches and fifteen is even short for cnh.
 
lordnikon
rank 58
Posted:
Tue May 02, 2017 9:54 am
quote : #3
profile : pm
Posts: 2765
Type: NTSC-U/C
We have been playing CTF with enough variety on base defense, base disruption, repair, and flag capping. The rounds are not ending too fast. I think we are doing a pretty good job with CTF. I was just trying to put into words how we have been playing given the circumstances of having a few humans and some bots. I think the way we have been playing CTF as good as can be given the circumstances.

With the "come at me bro" comment, I wasn't meaning that you hold onto the flag and sit at your base out in the open not capping it to end the match. What I meant was, lets say I have capped your flag 3 times, and it is 300 to 0. At this point, I would hang back and take the opportunity to focus on setting up my own base defenses, or maybe switching to disrupt your base instead. I could suit up as light + energy pack + flares and flag cap the map into oblivion (i would try, where you are more likely to succeed doing this), however if I did this map after map, things get old real fast.

I guess a point I was trying to make was, no seasoned players are capping the rounds so fast as to prevent role variety from happening in our CTF matches, which is a good thing. I have seen seasoned vets cap matches so hard, as to demotivate me from setting up a single turret. It is an awesome display of skill, but I have two options: Chase him around each map, or stand there and watch. Also this was on no-bot AADS servers in the past so maybe that had something to do with it as well.

As for time lengths, yea its harder to justify a 20+ minute match when players are sometimes only around for 1-1.5 hrs of gaming. However the Recalescence match we had on Sunday was simply awesome. Its nice to have a bit longer match sometimes.
  _________________
The most effective, in this war?
The Bydo have it... and they control it.
Snafu Organizer
rank 27
Posted:
Tue May 02, 2017 6:26 pm
quote : #4
profile : pm
Posts: 565
Dude, i do try to cap out fast as much as i can at times and i did know what you ment by sitting back or changing your style of game play. The over and over again part i disagree with by the map changing on ctf. The with and with out vehicles changes a ctf game. You're right by the same principle of saying that ctf is still just ctf and we do mostly play ctf. I did do some tdm for koss and little dm for me. It's just that i do like capping out a game to change up the map.


Now, i do have to say that the last thin ice we played, that i don't ever remember our bots, lordnikon and i, grabbing the flag in one game that many times ever. Two bots on each side and our bots grabbed the flag each like twice.

I was like what Shocked

I do like the strategy of covering our flag carrier when it's a bot. Now that can be tough.

The Reconesence map man, holy f0k. I did that one on purpose because if you are ahead, i do say do let them come for us. It is so hard to get the flag out of base in the first place and then you have to get it back to hang it?

Not base, flag defense is very hard to get past on that map and i know that map very well as koss found out hitting some, like less than a few, of my hidden mines. hehehe Twisted Evil
 
Cirrus
rank 5
Posted:
Wed May 03, 2017 7:10 pm
quote : #5
profile : pm
Posts: 38
On Thin Ice I stopped playing and went out for a smoke because after I got the second cap for me and Koss' team you started team switching us. So two against 1 might explain all your flag caps.
 
koss
rank 7
Posted:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:17 pm
quote : #6
profile : pm
Posts: 66
You guys already know how I feel, but I'll just point a few things. Lord Nikon, I agree with your initial statement about CTF, and that was definitely a huge appeal for me back in the days of full servers. You could pick one single task and stick to it for an entire match and have a positive impact on your team. But thats just not possible with so few players.

Like you are saying, you cap three times while the other team is struggling to get on its feet, and then you stop... because whats the point. Basically, at that point, you stop playing CTF. There's no reason to. It becomes a game of TDM. You are already admitting that you don't use the score of CTF to measure how the game went... so why even bother. As you said, CNH, or any other game type for that matter, doesn't require teams to stop playing competitively, or players ease up on the enemy team. I think its pretty silly to play these maps and gametypes that are built for large teams, and have all these roles that need to be filled that just can't be done by two or three people.

For example: If you die and respawn at your base, only to find everything destroyed, it will take you forever to get it back up, especially if the enemy is in there camping. So you get capped on repeatedly. But if you stay to try to defend your base, you won't be able to cap. Theres just too few players to fill all the necessary roles. The game just doesn't work. There are too many dynamics and roles. IMO the more straightforward game types work so much better. Particularly maps like Sun Dried, where you don't have to worry about your base/gens being attacked. I know thats one of the cool aspects of tribes, but it only works when you have enough people.

In summary, its strange to me to expect everyone to adjust their playing (as is necessary with CTF) to accommodate the other team. And you don't need to in a game type like hunters. Everyone can just go hard. And thats fun.

Last edited by koss on Thu May 04, 2017 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
Snafu Organizer
rank 27
Posted:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:22 pm
quote : #7
profile : pm
Posts: 565
our bots and i were taking the flag before and after your smoke break.

Last edited by Snafu Organizer on Thu May 04, 2017 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
Snafu Organizer
rank 27
Posted:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:24 pm
quote : #8
profile : pm
Posts: 565
[quote="Snafu Organizer"]our bots and i were taking the flag before and after your smoke.[/quote] Ones single task? i do everything that wasneeded. If we are down in ctf points, i'll try to change that.

switching teams? i did switch them back.

i felt it was unfair for you guys because nikon and i were doing good and then i figured how much of a bitch it mush be to play split screen and not being on the same team.

i do give you guys credit for playing the way i host and staying true to your team... no mater what

i would like to... both, keep you on the same tv at times, but i think its funny when you have a chance to kill each other, and not team kill, to go against each other on a spit screen or have the option to yell at each others face when this happens, right next to each other.

You two, koss and Cirrus, do have to yell... piss each other off, by the way i host at times and i love that.

i would be punching my buddy in the arm or take his controller and throw it away from him, if i did spit screen and he was on the other team.
 
koss
rank 7
Posted:
Thu May 04, 2017 8:04 pm
quote : #9
profile : pm
Posts: 66
Just for clarification, me and Cirrus capped like 4 times in a row at the beginning of the CTF match on Thin Ice. The score was like 404 - 101. Then you started switching up the teams so cirrus went outside to smoke. I played by myself for a few minutes but eventually wound up frustrated and quit.
 
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