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fanoid
rank 4
Posted:
Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:15 am
quote : #1
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Posts: 22
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/6767623.stm

rockstar have 6 weeks to appeal

Im not happy at all!!
 
mcmonkey
rank 7
Posted:
Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:30 am
quote : #2
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Posts: 69
I found the first Man Hunt too unsettling/disturbing to play past the tutorial... I think the BBFC may have been a bit too harsh with the out right banning it, but to be perfectly honest, I couldn't blame them. Embarassed
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fanoid
rank 4
Posted:
Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:16 pm
quote : #3
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Posts: 22
no way man! yeah its pretty full on but i loved the first one

hopefully i'll be able to get an import if it does get banned
 
lordnikon
rank 59
Posted:
Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:04 pm
quote : #4
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If this were banned in America I would be very angry, since it would violate constitutional rights. I don't know much about the UK's government and what laws apply in this situation. I can see how Manhunt 2 would get banned. In-fact, after all of the outcries about Grand Theft Auto, I always found it funny how the original Manhunt sat on store shelves and people barely noticed. Maybe because the bigger money maker got more attention and grabbed more headlines. Thus drawing polititions to GTA so they could get the most media exposure.

My stance on the Manhunt 2 issue is this: I do not feel the game should have been banned, however given the content of the game, I am not suprised it did get banned.

I wonder if Germany is having a heartattack right now about Manhunt 2, since they ban more games than even Australia. I think any FPS with violence is banned in Germany. They are nuts.
  _________________
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Phredreeke
rank 6
Posted:
Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:27 pm
quote : #5
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Posts: 46
Censorship scares me Crying or Very sad It's a threat to democracy. It's just video games, you might say, but everything has to begin somewhere.
 
fanoid
rank 4
Posted:
Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:45 pm
quote : #6
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Posts: 22
Yeah Nikon im very angry about this too, the news tonight said its the first game to be baned in the UK for 10 years the other being carmageddon.

As you mite have read on the bbc link i posted the news tonight said it was because of "unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying" and a parents campane against the game after they said its was to blame for the killing of there 14yrs son by a 17yrs boy.

Now i understand that this is very sad and i feel for the parents but i cant see how you can blame just one game.

1. The game over here is and 18+ so he shouldnt have had it in the first place

2.If someone is that unstable that they can confuse a computer game and reality than they shouldnt really be living in open society and if this kid had these sort of problems than surely he would of snapped at sometime

3 How many violent films are out there ? ? You only have to take a look at the movie Hostel which is extremely burtal and show organised torture and murder.


I can see this having big implications for censorship over here, i just dont understand how they can ban this game and release movies like Hostel which look a hell of a lot more real and is possibly more violent

Anyway rant over it had been brewing all night and has just came out in one big post of jiberish hope u can make sence of it

Fanoid

P.S Nikon could u explain a lil bit of how this would violate constitutional rights i dont really have a clue about it
 
mcmonkey
rank 7
Posted:
Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:35 pm
quote : #7
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Posts: 69
Wasn't the banning due to the context of the violence? IE that the acts being exhibited were shown in a positive light. I doubt it would have been banned purely because of the nature of the violence. If it was the nature then Fanoids point would be justified. I doubt this though.

The director of the BBFC's reasons for the ban seem to point to context.

Quote:
David Cooke, director of the BBFC, said: "Manhunt 2 is distinguishable from recent high-end video games by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone.

"There is sustained and cumulative casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged, in the game."


As for the business about the poor lad that was murdered. It was all pretty much a tabloid manipulated affair. From what I recall of the incident, the only thing linking the original game to the murder was that the game was either found at the scene or that the poor boy that was killed owned the game. It was really just the two grief ridden parents wanting something to blame that led to the whole situation (that's what I assume at least).

As for Phredreeke's comment about it being a threat to democracy. The BBFC is independent from government, so I doubt that it would threaten the fabrics of our great society... Wink

I would have preferred it if the game was restricted only to be sold over the counter like tobacco or porn. But of course, only spotty, immature, immoral, bed-wetting types play computer games. Rolling Eyes

I believe that letters are being sent to MP's we are speak to raise the matter in Parliament. So I would hope that an MP would at least see the breach in freedom of expression here and at least ask some questions about it to the culture minister/prime minister.

As for the game itself. I read a positive review of it the other day in a magazine. I hope this doesn't mean we're missing out on a potential classic now. Sad

EDIT: Wow, that was long...
  _________________
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Phredreeke
rank 6
Posted:
Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:38 pm
quote : #8
profile : pm
Posts: 46
fanoid wrote:
As you mite have read on the bbc link i posted the news tonight said it was because of "unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying" and a parents campane against the game after they said its was to blame for the killing of there 14yrs son by a 17yrs boy.


Let me quote wikipedia on that:

Quote:
In the United Kingdom, both parents of murder victim Stefan Pakeerah lashed out at Rockstar for confirming the release of a sequel. Stefan Pakeerah was murdered by Warren Leblanc, who was reportedly inspired by Manhunt (though it was later determined by police that robbery was the motive) and is now serving a life sentence for murder.


Reading the bible could probably inspire a multitude of various murder methods. Should the bible be banned too? Ha, whenever someone blames a game for a crime, a true cause is always discovered later... Except for that guy who killed another guy because he had stolen a sword from him in some MMORPG. But if you do that you clearly belong in the nuthouse anyway...

fanoid wrote:
P.S Nikon could u explain a lil bit of how this would violate constitutional rights i dont really have a clue about it


It doesn't, because the american constitution only apply to the united states, not UK. Basically to quote wikipedia on the first amendment:

Quote:
It prohibits the federal legislature from making laws that establish religion (the "Establishment Clause") or prohibit free exercise of religion (the "Free Exercise Clause"), laws that infringe the freedom of speech, infringe the freedom of the press, limit the right to assemble peaceably, or limit the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Posted Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:42 am:

mcmonkey wrote:
As for Phredreeke's comment about it being a threat to democracy. The BBFC is independent from government, so I doubt that it would threaten the fabrics of our great society... Wink


Well, you begin by banning a video game or a movie because it's violent, but that doesn't mean it stays on that level. The censorship can spread to other areas for example articles that are politically challenging. Free speech in a free world.
 
lordnikon
rank 59
Posted:
Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:28 pm
quote : #9
profile : pm
Posts: 2832
Type: NTSC-U/C
fanoid wrote:
As you mite have read on the bbc link i posted the news tonight said it was because of "unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying" and a parents campane against the game after they said its was to blame for the killing of there 14yrs son by a 17yrs boy.

Now i understand that this is very sad and i feel for the parents but i cant see how you can blame just one game.

1. The game over here is and 18+ so he shouldnt have had it in the first place

2.If someone is that unstable that they can confuse a computer game and reality than they shouldnt really be living in open society and if this kid had these sort of problems than surely he would of snapped at sometime

3 How many violent films are out there ? ? You only have to take a look at the movie Hostel which is extremely burtal and show organised torture and murder.

I am not sure if you are aware, but here in the USA polititions have been grabbing headlines with the violent video game issue quite regularly. Every month some senator is trying to pass anti-video game legislation in congress. Each time they have been struck down as being unconstitional. This has been a major problem here in the US. Video Games are all of a sudden the new "Rock n' Roll".

We the "Damn crazy kids and our evil music".

It is a generational shift, and the old people just don't get it. They don't understand games.

The real travesty are the people looking for the Government to do their parenting for them. If a kid goes out and stabs another kid it wasn't Manhunt's fault. Only the kid's environment and the parents are to blame for this. It should be noted that child violence is currently lower than it has been in previous years, and kids are playing more video games than ever before.

Sure video games can be a part of the "environment" a kid lives in. When I was young, different forms of media affected me. My friend and I dressed up like ninjas in all black and ran around at night climbing trees. This was because I watched a ton of cheesy 80's action films like the American Ninja series, or the legendary Enter the Dragon with Bruce Lee. However I still knew that mortally wounding another human being was wrong. You just didn't do that. By taking a knife and stabbing someone, you could kill them. I knew this. This was due to the many other counter-elements in my environment which tought me right from wrong.

Unfortunatly many households don't have such an environment, and some place kids in a very troubled and mentally dabilitating atmosphere which can cause people to straight up lose it.

The situation is pretty simple. Banning Manhunt 2 is wrong. There is no middle ground here.

fanoid wrote:
P.S Nikon could u explain a lil bit of how this would violate constitutional rights i dont really have a clue about it

Here is a good description which should shed some more light on the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States:

The government may, however, impose reasonable limitations upon the time, place, and manner in which speech is exercised in order to protect public order and the smooth functioning of public administration. In imposing such restrictions, however, the state may not discriminate on the basis of the content of speech since such limitations would permit the state to favor one type of speech over another. Narrow exceptions are drawn for special categories of speech, particularly obscenity and so‐called “fighting words,” which could lead to public disturbances. Even in these categories, the Court has gradually expanded the scope of judicial scrutiny. For example, hecklers are generally not permitted to exert a “veto” over speech by creating a threat of violence and disorder; the state is obligated to protect, not stop, the controversial speaker.

mcmonkey wrote:
I would have preferred it if the game was restricted only to be sold over the counter like tobacco or porn.

This would be bad. It means you would be saying video games are somehow different than any other form of media that features the exact same subject matter. Almost every other medium of self expression has these themes, even moreso than video games. Film, Art, Sculpture, Audio, Spoken Word, and Literature all push boundries in terms of social acceptance. There is no reason why games like the Manhunt series should be relegated to "black paper bags" behind the counter in a liquor store.

Just look at the news, and the tickers that stream across the TV set. Guns, Death, Shootings, Rape, more guns, more death, bus explodes killing 40 people, asian man rapes kid in the back of a parked BMW, 3 children drowned by there mother, man commits suicide infront of 6 year old daughter, pets brutally stabbed by drunken homeless man, bank robbery goes bad when 2 armed gunman open fire on park residents. Not only is the news anchor showing images of this while vocally repeating the same phrases over and over again, but you get a triple dose of chaos as that ticker streams along the bottom of the TV listing every bit of carnage the media can track down.

---

EDIT: THIS JUST IN! - Manhunt 2 gets AO (Adults Only) Rating in North America

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172743.html

Quote from article:
"We believe the process of rating video games is to help people make informed entertainment choices and not to limit them," a Take-Two representative said. "Manhunt 2 was created for mature audiences and we strongly believe it should receive an M (Mature) rating, aligning it with similar content created in other forms of media. We are exploring our options with regard to the rating of Manhunt 2."

Take Two Interactive is the publisher of Manhunt 2 in the US (Not sure if they are in PAL Regions as well). It looks like they may explore legal action in regards to Manhunt 2 in North America.
  _________________
The most effective, in this war?
The Bydo have it... and they control it.
fanoid
rank 4
Posted:
Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:14 am
quote : #10
profile : pm
Posts: 22
Quote:
It doesn't, because the american constitution only apply to the united states, not UK. Basically to quote wikipedia on the first amendment:


Haha yeah i was aware of that lol

Quote:
I am not sure if you are aware, but here in the USA polititions have been grabbing headlines with the violent video game issue quite regularly. Every month some senator is trying to pass anti-video game legislation in congress. Each time they have been struck down as being unconstitional. This has been a major problem here in the US. Video Games are all of a sudden the new "Rock n' Roll".


Yeah Nikon it is pretty similar here too, last week Sony had to appolgise for using Manchester Cathedral in the PS3 game Resistance: fall of man and today the news reported that the PC title Law and Order: Double or Nothing is to be removed from the shelves for including a photo of murdered toddler James Bulger being lead away by his killers. I have to agree with the last one as that is too much and should be removed from the game.

Quote:
"Just look at the news, and the tickers that stream across the TV set. Guns, Death, Shootings, Rape, more guns, more death, bus explodes killing 40 people, asian man rapes kid in the back of a parked BMW, 3 children drowned by there mother, man commits suicide infront of 6 year old daughter, pets brutally stabbed by drunken homeless man, bank robbery goes bad when 2 armed gunman open fire on park residents. Not only is the news anchor showing images of this while vocally repeating the same phrases over and over again, but you get a triple dose of chaos as that ticker streams along the bottom of the TV listing every bit of carnage the media can track down".


This is a very very good point the news is one of the most gursome things you can see on TV these days and can be quite distrubing but yet and kid can view this. Sounds like double standards to me.

Anyway Rockstar released at statment today saying

"The subject matter of this game is in line with other mainstream entertainment choices for adult consumers."

I dont no if that is 100% true but its sounds as tho Rockstar are going to appeal the decision and here hoping they can get the verdict overturned or i'll be having to import this one


Fanoid
 
lordnikon
rank 59
Posted:
Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:46 am
quote : #11
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Posts: 2832
Type: NTSC-U/C
fanoid wrote:
"The subject matter of this game is in line with other mainstream entertainment choices for adult consumers."

I dont no if that is 100% true but its sounds as tho Rockstar are going to appeal the decision and here hoping they can get the verdict overturned or i'll be having to import this one

Rockstar's statement IS 100% true. One only needs to look towards horror films and or some gruesome psychological thrillers to see that Manhunt / Manhunt 2 is far down on the food chain when it comes to over the top media.

A perfect example is in the movie Seven when that one guy is forced to fuck that chick to death with a giant arching blade strapped onto him. Hell in early schooling we had to read books on Nazi Concentration camps, where it went into medical detail the methods of one Josef Mengele (known as the Angel of Death, and performed gruesome experiements on prisoners in Nazi concentration camps).

One could go on and on with examples of media that trump what is in the Manhunt games. In the end, it all comes down to the fact that there is no reason Manhunt 2 should be banned from retail. In a democratic, free society, it is a crime to do so.
  _________________
The most effective, in this war?
The Bydo have it... and they control it.
MICHAE2414
rank 24
Posted:
Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:49 pm
quote : #12
profile : pm
Posts: 497
The only real solution I can see Rockstar do if the appeal doesn't go through is to tone it down enough to make it an M-rated title. (Both Sony and Nintendo stated they won't allow an AO game on their respective consoles, so if the AO rating sticks, it won't be on major retail shelves or available for the PS2 at all.) It's unfortunate that videogames are put in the limelight this way when other forms of media greatly exceed the nature of what's portrayed in this game.
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Gforce
rank 27
Posted:
Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:11 am
quote : #13
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Posts: 562
Type: NTSC-U/C
I was looking forward to this game even before all this aforementioned controversy. I just want to play this mess!
  _________________
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mcmonkey
rank 7
Posted:
Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:04 pm
quote : #14
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Posts: 69
Its been temporarily cancelled according to Game Central (UK Teletext daily-zine). So this situation takes another twist. I want to buy this game now purely due to this controversy...

I'm a whore for controversy...
  _________________
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gRiMgRaVy014
rank 10
Posted:
Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:28 pm
quote : #15
profile : pm
Posts: 131
Type: NTSC-U/C
mcmonkey wrote:
Its been temporarily cancelled according to Game Central (UK Teletext daily-zine). So this situation takes another twist. I want to buy this game now purely due to this controversy...

I'm a whore for controversy...


I think publicity might just make the game more popular.

It happened with GTA 3.
 
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