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Topic: HD cable recomondations

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Mir_wan
rank 39
Posted:
Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:09 pm
quote : #1
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Posts: 931
im looking to get some hd cables for my ps2 so i can use it on my hd tv and i was wondering if anyone knew of any good ones to get. I dont know if i should go with the official sony or if a cheaper third party cable will work just as fine. Does anyone know if the sony ones work any better than the third party ones?
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lordnikon
rank 59
Posted:
Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:12 pm
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Well I own a third party cable which came with a device I purchased. It seems to work just fine(I use it on a Component to VGA device, so I can display games on a PC CRT monitor). However, I don't have an HDTV, mainly for the fact that the PS2 is technically not compatible with HDTV technology.

I do not advise running your PS2 on an HDTV at all. The reason for this is input lag. All HDTV's have native resolutions of one or all of the following: 720p, 1080p, or 1080i.

The PS2 defaults to 480i, with some games having progressive scan 480p support.

However when you connect your PS2 to an HDTV, sure it can understand the signal, but it cannot display it in a resolution other than what the TV natively supports. Therefore it must "upconvert" the 480i/480p signal to something that the HDTV can display.

Once this happens, there is a noticable time delay between the PS2 and the TV. You press the button, and a 1-2 seconds later your player will jump. This is most noticable in time sensitive games such as shmups, fighters and rhythm games. There are some HDTV's that have a "games mode" which supposedly speeds things up, but it doesn't eliminate the time lag. Currently there is no all in one solution to eliminate the input LAG.

My recommendation is to keep a standard TV setup for running all game consoles from the PS2's era and prior.
  _________________
The most effective, in this war?
The Bydo have it... and they control it.
X
rank 4
Posted:
Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:04 pm
quote : #3
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Posts: 29
lordnikon wrote:
I use it on a Component to VGA device, so I can display games on a PC CRT monitor.


Hey, which one do you use? Is the picture quality good on the PC monitor?
 
Einhander
rank 11
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:28 am
quote : #4
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I'll weigh in and say that while input lag is a pretty serious issue with HDTVs displaying SD content, it's not as serious as has been pronounced. It's nowhere near a full second, most decent TVs with SD input lag will delay for less than 70ms. This will definitely still bone you on fast paced games, though. Can you play Front Mission 4? Sure. Can you play Gran Turismo 4? No. Any game played online will suffer as well, since your reaction time will be decreased because you'll be seeing the image after it's actually happened. Couple this with standard internet latency, and you're in huge trouble.

An HDTV will usually have to scale the image it's provided to it's native resolution, that is, it will have to take the 640x480 interlaced signal that your PS2 is sending it and translate that into a resolution it is capable of displaying, whether that is a 1280x720 image (at 720p), or up to a 1920x1080 image (1080i/p). The image is scaled by a piece of hardware in your HDTV (apprpriately enough it is called a scaler), and depending on the quality of that scaler, it can take a varying amount of time.

Some HDTVs have extremely good scalers, and the input lag can be unnoticable. Those TVs are generally the more expensive models.

A lot of TVs do have the Game Mode that was mentioned, and while that will minimise the time spent scaling the image, the actual image quality will suffer. You'll get a snappy picture, but it will look like ass since it's doing considerably less picture processing.

Your best bet is to get what's called an EDTV, which stands for Enhanced Definition Television. They're a little harder to find, but they'll display both 480i (interlaced content, what you get from a regular SDTV), and 480p (progressive scan content, what you get when you enable progressive scan from your PS2 or other console). An EDTV will display 480i content with no discernable lag, and you'll get the benefit of progressive scan (meaning a better image) from games that support it as well. They're difficult to find since not many people are intrested in buying them now that the prices on HDTVs have fallen so low.

To actually answer your question, though, when it comes to cables, first party always seems to be the better bet. I've been using a set of third party component cables for my PS2 simply because I haven't been able to find an actual Sony set for the PS2, and they've looked pretty good, so maybe I just scored a good brand (which I unfortunately cannot remember). Since component signals are analog signals, you can lose quality if the cables are shoddy, but if you don't want to pay through the nose for an official 1st party cable then that's your only option. My set looks fine on component at 480i (component cables will make a difference over composite even if you don't have progressive scan support. They separate each color {red, blue, and green} into it's own wire, which is why there is much less interference than when every color is sent along one wire {the yellow wire} in a composite setup). Since I'm only operating at 480i, cable quality isn't that large of an issue, since even if I had magical gold plated $80 Monster XXL Magnum Xtreme!!! cables, it wouldn't matter because I'm not even viewing a progressive scan image. Just stay away from known crappy brands like Pelican and MadCatz if you can't spring for Sony brand cables. You can generally find Monster brand component cables for less than $10 used at whatever game store you frequent. They're not anywhere near as good as Monster hypes them as, but they're better than a knockoff brand, and they're cheap.

Since the PS3 uses the same AV cable as the PS2 does, Sony brand (and third party bandwagon) component cables are in wide supply, but they're still very expensive.

So, basically, the best bet for consoles like the PS2 and previous is an EDTV and a decent set of component cables, since you'll get the benefit of 480p on PS2 games that support it, and you'll get a good 480i image for all of the other games from it and older consoles as well. Your other option for PS2 games is to get a PS3, since it does all of the scaling internally (which is extremely quick), and then feeds your TV a signal at it's native res, so there is no input lag. While this is technically an option, it kind of kills the whole "playing PS2 games on actual PS2 hardware" thing that we're so big on. Once the scaler technology in HDTVs catches up, buying one for SD content will be a much more attractive option, but until then you may want to avoid gaming on one with your PS2.

Hope that mammoth wall of text helped. I'm kind of drunk so I apologise if I made any errors.
 
lordnikon
rank 59
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:15 pm
quote : #5
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Posts: 2839
Type: NTSC-U/C
Einhander wrote:
Your best bet is to get what's called an EDTV, which stands for Enhanced Definition Television. They're a little harder to find, but they'll display both 480i (interlaced content, what you get from a regular SDTV), and 480p (progressive scan content, what you get when you enable progressive scan from your PS2 or other console). An EDTV will display 480i content with no discernable lag, and you'll get the benefit of progressive scan (meaning a better image) from games that support it as well. They're difficult to find since not many people are intrested in buying them now that the prices on HDTVs have fallen so low.

The EDTV option is very impractical because these TV"s are so difficult to find. You are lucky to track one down on ebay.

I spent weeks researching this stuff, not because I had plans to upgrade to an HDTV but because I wanted to use the PSP's video out functions to play Metal Gear Solid and Monster Hunter on a display. Turns out the PSP only outputs at 480p. The best solution I have found, if you are truly interested in displaying 480p signals is not to kill yourself tracking down an EDTV, but instead to get a component to VGA convertor which can support 480p, 720p, 1080p, and 1080i signals. It is best to have a spare PC CRT monitor for this.

The convertor I use has no distortion or banding and looks as good as a DC vga box practically. I ran Outrun 2006 on it in progressive 480p and it looked phenominal. If you want to run Gran Turismo 4 in 1080i, then this is the route to go.

If you are interested in the product I am using you can buy it here:
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-de-49-en-70-2b90.html

Not only do you get the VGA box, but you get 4 sets of component cables for different consoles. 2 of them being the PS2 and PSP.

SIDE NOTE: It is funny to see people who have migrated to an HDTV and ditched out on an SDTV. Anyone who plays 480i/480p games on an HDTV I consider to be posers who just power on their game systems for silly fun, and like to look at pretty graphics. Their entertainment unit is just for show and they don't have a serious investment in the video game hobby. Anyone who says "oh well I don't really notice any input lag" obviously doesn't play video games for the same reason I do, and I instantly discredit them as being someone to talk to about video games.
  _________________
The most effective, in this war?
The Bydo have it... and they control it.
Einhander
rank 11
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:43 pm
quote : #6
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Posts: 161
Type: NTSC-U/C
There's quite a few EDTVs selling on ebay, but your best bet is to talk to local electronic stores anyway. You'll get a much better deal.

Using a monitor for SD and ED content is great, except for you're limiting yourself to the size of your monitor. If you've got an enormous 24" or above screen, that's not a big deal. But if you're like the average person and have a 17" or 19" screen, then your solution is less than ideal. Especially considering that you could be playing games on a much larger EDTV from the comfort of your couch.

Also, discrediting someone based on their choice of televisions seems kind of... extreme? I hope you weren't referring to myself, but if you were you might want to know that I've got a 24" Sanyo SD CRT that I do the majority of my gaming (PS1, PS2, Saturn, and Xbox) on. There is also a 19" CRT monitor that houses one of my Dreamcasts, and the other DC, the other PS2, and the Genesis all use a 20" SD CRT in the corner. The only high def gaming I do is on a 19" Widescrren 720p LCD monitor that is used for my computer, my 360, and on occasion one of my Dreamcasts when the TV is being used for another console during a LAN party. I try to keep the DC on the CRT since the LCD is widescreen, and not many DC games support 16x9 and most games look terrible when they're stretched.

If a person has an HDTV with a killer scaler to eliminate input lag, then by all means they should use it. If a person uses a PS2 on an HDTV with a shitty scaler, then they'll figure it out eventually after they've gotten fragged or smashed into the side of the track or been KO'd enough times. I don't understand your disdain for EDTVs based on their difficulty to find. Since when does a hardcore gamer give up on finding something just because it's rare?

Also, on a side note, the PSP can output in 480i, but Sony chose not to enable that functionality for the newer PSPs (probably because it looks like shit at 480i). Remember the PSP2TV modification kit that came out? The only kicker is it cost (at release) $120 and required you to open your system and void your warantee. So if you had an older PSP and really wanted to play PSP games on a television without buying an ED or HDTV, you can, but quality will suffer compared to a newer PSP at 480p. Even on a newer system, pictures and video are displayable at 480i, the system only requires progressive scan for game playing.

Mr_Wan should pick up a set of cheap component cables and test out his TV's scaler. If it's good (meaning no discernable lag), then presto, he's good to go. The best way to test your scaler would be to play Guitar Hero (it has a built in latency test in the options menu), or fire up a shooter or some other fast paced game. If his scaler sucks, then Mr_Wan's options from best to worst (in terms of picture quality, not necessarily financial doability although that's taken into account) would probably be:

Drop a couple hundred bucks on a good sized EDTV
Drop a hundred to a hundred and fifty bucks on a huge sized SDTV
Drop seventy bucks on a VGA converter box (assuming he has a good sized monitor already)
Drop two thousand bucks on an HDTV with a top of the line scaler
Spend nothing and use his current HDTV if it has input lag

In all honesty I think our posts scared him off.
 
lordnikon
rank 59
Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:05 am
quote : #7
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Posts: 2839
Type: NTSC-U/C
I merely said EDTV's are impractical. Some EDTV's only support 480p. Technical specs on EDTV's (and most TV's) on the internet are vague and innaccurate. CRT TV's aren't the funnest things to ship around. They are big, costly to ship and fragile.

Computer CRT monitors are far easier to track down. A lot of people probobly already own a CRT monitor. Which means you can score the above VGA box I listed and be up and running for PSP / PS2 progressive scan play as soon as possible.

If people want to track down an EDTV then they should by all means do it. I just think that the cost / time / hassle ratio is in favor of the Component2VGA convertor.

---

As far as discrediting someone based on their choice of televisions, no, I do not think my logic on this is too extreme. If someone is willing to put up with squashed/stretched images, input lag, and image distortion, just to get a game to run on their brand new shiny HDTV; then these type of people do not have the same vested interest that I have in video games. Their entertainment setup for them is a big lightshow, and not a functional gaming setup for serious play.

Note: I of course was not lumping you in with these kind of people. You obviously value your gaming experience and strive to keep your input control and display visuals at their best without compromising one or the other.

---

As for Mir_Wan looking into getting component cables. I can really only recommend he use them if he is going to run Gran Turismo 4 on a TV that supports a native resolution of 1080i. Other than that he should stick with an SDTV setup for the PS2, or get an EDTV if he wants to run progressive scan games on a regular basis.

I should point out that I mainly recommend getting the component to VGA convertor for PSP usage. The convertor doesn't have a 480i mode. So on the PS2 you have to boot up your game on the TV, switch the display mode, and then switch the cables over to the monitor (no fun).
  _________________
The most effective, in this war?
The Bydo have it... and they control it.
Einhander
rank 11
Posted:
Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:07 am
quote : #8
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Posts: 161
Type: NTSC-U/C
While we're on the topic, HDTV Arcade is a great resource for anyone who is interested in seeing which games support which display modes. It has a listing showing which games support 480p, and more importantly (for me anway) 16x9.

What baffles me is that there are a decent amount of games that (assuming the site is accurate) support progressive scan, but don't support widescreen.
 
Mir_wan
rank 39
Posted:
Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:19 am
quote : #9
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Posts: 931
sorry guys the posts didnt scare me off i was just little busy with college and stuff. i ended up just using my ps2 on a 27inch regular tv i have at my house.

i tired some 3rd party cables that my friend let me borrow. It seemed to brighted up the colors a bit but i didnt play long enough to notice and lag or anything. It not to bad when a game has a widescreen mode such as the newer tomb raider games.

i also came across this upscaler
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/02/15/review_xploder_playstation_2_hdtv_player/

has anyone heard of it? does it only work for PAL? i propably wont buy it but just curious about it.
  _________________
Everyone needs Sorrow-------------------
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